Bala Pillai http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mindecos/ is the best example
of a "social hacker" that I know of, somebody who reaches out to
encourage activity amongst groups so as to get things done. In
particular, he's energetic at encouraging proactivity, and the
associated online behavior. (01)
I'm looking for more such social hackers, if you can think of any!
And of looking for ways to connect our various groups to help each other
get things done. (02)
Some key ideas that came out for me in this interview:
- The importance of sense-of-presence rich communication (like IRC) for
people to appreciate new ways of thinking.
- The lack of structure in online groups.
- The need to move from talking to doing, and structure arising from that.
- The importance of exchange as an explicitly shared act of doing.
- The importance of having somebody to face, for the purpose of
self-commitment and commitment-to-others, and this aspect of working openly.
- The use of unspoken layers of structure to insulate ourselves from
caring about our environment, the people around us.
- Considering the underlying reasons for norms, and whether they apply
as conditions change across cultures.
- Uplifting people by encouraging them to think bigger, and go from
talking to doing.
- Exchange as a means of putting reciprocal relationships at the forefront.
- Engaging a group boldly, as a musician engages an audience.
- Considering if the audience is having a good effect on you.
- Asking for permission to the extent that the community makes this
possible.
- Getting aware of the culture of a community.
- Monitoring 5 to 8 groups.
- Looking for doers, people with inner strength, who bounce back.
- Allowing that one unpleasantry is worth understanding the potential
for relationship.
- Especially given that people do not know what they do not know.
- The lack of understanding of differences in price-of-time.
- The usefulness of communicating non-negotiables. (03)
Andrius (04)
Andrius Kulikauskas
Minciu Sodas
http://www.ms.lt
ms@ms.lt
+370 52645950
Vilnius, Lithuania (05)
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Andrius: Hi Bala! :: Thank you for your letter. :: It's great that
Robin is interviewing you. :: Hi Bala. (06)
Bala: Hi Andrius..just got back in (07)
Andrius: Hi Bala! :: I'm writing my paper on social hacking. :: If I
could, it would be great to ask you some questions, :: get your personal
perspective. (08)
Bala: Sure :: Were you able to reach Peter Kaminski? (09)
Andrius: I wrote to him, :: he didn't reply, though, :: so I'll connect
back with him. (010)
Bala: i c -- ok -- forward him what I sent you :: that might spark him
some (011)
Andrius: OK :: I'm thinking of social hackers :: as people who are
working to connect groups :: so that they benefit from each other's
energy :: and can get things done. :: Do you think of yourself as
working to connect groups? (012)
Bala: Yes, very much so. :: organising structures -- plugs and sockets
between them..so that we systemically increase connecting :: i.e. raise
the water level and the lotuses rise :: instead of just working on the
lotuses. (013)
Andrius: And what are the lotuses? (014)
Bala: lotuses are flowers that grow in lakes (015)
Andrius: yes, but in your metaphor... (016)
Bala: so the saying is to state:- do systematic improvements.. :: and
systems are made up of people :: another eg:- :: if a child is crying..
:: many make the mistake of asking the child to stop crying :: much
better idea is to change the background -- turn on some music the child
likes :: better odds of having the child to stop crying :: so..lift the
stage instead of tinkering with the actors (017)
Andrius: Do you think that a single group can get anything done? Or a
group of groups? What does it mean to "get something done"? :: And what
does it take to get something done? (018)
Bala: Yes single groups can :: with good cop/bad cops :: i.e. the
Linux movement from its early days :: the czar is essential :: many
won't like the czar :: but enough of the doers will :: and then enough
others who don't like the czar will go set up their own groups :: which
is also good :: and then when the czar and the dedicateds deliver, more
join the group :: sense-of-presence rich communication is essential ::
for the Linux movement it was IRC (019)
Andrius: What is happening different, qualitatively, when somebody
reaches out to bridge groups? :: If anything? (020)
Bala: There can be differences, but I think you are talking mostly
about online groups. :: And with online groups, nearly all don't have
structure (021)
Andrius: Yes. (022)
Bala: compared to a village :: a village of 500 people can and have
been self-sustaining in history :: if we provide some basic structure to
them :: so that we move from from a talking environment to a mix of
doing and talking.. :: and even better exchanging :: then connecting
groups will be so much easier :: because we will be connecting doer
pools with each other :: just as a road connecting 2 villages :: and the
road will be used by the doers who want to bridge, exchange with the
other village :: and the connectors in turn provide opportunities to
others in the village that previously wouldn't have occured. :: If we
stick to mostly uncommited talking groups, they stay levels lower. (023)
Andrius: What does it take to go from talking to doing? (024)
Bala: at the very minimum a project management/points scoring
structure something like http://www.quickbase.com :: get enough, even if
it is 2 or 3 people to use it :: and a habit of reciprocity will be woven in (025)
Andrius: So you need a project management system to get structure? ::
What are the essentials? (026)
Bala: Ask yourself what is it that has a group (people) who are in a
physical office to work? :: And what would most likely happen if the
same people without any briefing were asked to work from home :: what
has them to work? :: some keys:- :: the thought of facing a project
leader or a peer.. :: and repeatedly giving excuses :: Key: **facing** (027)
Andrius: I like that point about facing (028)
Bala: the emotive deterrence of facing the repercussions of letting
someone down :: so.. (029)
Andrius: because it explains my interest in working openly (030)
Bala: how do we recreate that virtually? :: ok..if there were spaces
online (031)
Andrius: that I can be motivated by myself to work on my own (032)
Bala: where we could see people in a group.. (033)
Andrius: but it is still good to know that there is (034)
Bala: committing to themselves and to each other :: and these
commitments are tracked for each other to see :: and they have a
communication mechanism..IRC or IM (035)
Andrius: a transparency that allows me to be watched over. :: It helps
with self-commitment, even if :: I'm not interested in commiting to
someone else. :: I like the idea of people working in parallel. (036)
Bala: and people who are able to see the group planning and acheiving.. (037)
Andrius: Openly and voluntarily. (038)
Bala: yes -- but intention and commitment is key (039)
Andrius: I suppose voluntary work has to be driven by (040)
Bala: i.e. there is room for all kinds of souls (041)
Andrius: self-commitment. (042)
Bala: but if you want to be part of a group :: by definition you have
to synchronise :: and if you have to synchronise.. :: it can be synching
on a daily basis :: on a monthly basis :: on a yearly basis :: on a
decade basis (043)
Andrius: Or a project by project basis. :: If you want to be helpful,
you have to be timely. (044)
Bala: Yes. :: or you do a role that is a mentor role :: where it is
your availability that matters (045)
Andrius: I think there is a natural resistance from groups to be
engaged :: by "outsiders", to be connected to others (046)
Bala: because the structure is not there (047)
Andrius: I see. (048)
Bala: sure :: like in Nature there is an instinctive structure (049)
Andrius: So I think of trying to create that structure as "social hacking" (050)
Bala: Cave men had an instictive structure :: Centralisation and
removedness diluted the structure (051)
Andrius: Do you think "social hacker" is a suitable term, or do you
have a better one? (052)
Bala: I think that is a great term (053)
Andrius: Why? (054)
Bala: hacker -- lights up someone who chops to me :: to many it will
light up someone who is like a computer hacker :: one who challenges ::
and we imagine them to be bright :: unconventional (055)
Andrius: Who do you think are great examples of social hackers? (056)
Bala: I hardly see them Andrius -- hardly hardly -- other than me :-) (057)
Andrius: That's why I'm asking you! (058)
Bala: and I have been in many groups :: most don't have the stamina to
be :: they call it a day and go back to their cocoon :: many of my ideas
of better connecting and structure solutions come from having to adapt
to the failures I have faced as a social hacker :: for example many in
the Tamil community hate me.. :: many respect me too (059)
Andrius: Like a magnet :: repulse or attract (060)
Bala: because I didn't put up lowest common denominator :: and 2
wrongs don't make a right :: I deliberately challenged :: my goal was to
get folks seriously thinking :: and I was willing to pay a high price
for it :: most are not. (061)
Andrius: I'm thinking that online groups are inherently resistant to
structure, and so even more so to people trying to create structure with
the outside world (062)
Bala: No..try the structure :: they may be inherently resistant to the
word "structure" more than the notion "structure" :: because they are in
structure :: they are in pervasive structures :: without structure their
bus system won't work :: their money will not be accepted :: helluva lot
of people and processes come together for them to have a sane life ::
ok.. :: understandably.. :: they might not like rigid structures (063)
Andrius: Yes. Perhaps they don't want to think explicitly about structure. (064)
Bala: then they owe it to themselves to create the tensile structures
that they like (065)
Andrius: Maybe they feel free if they don't think about structure. (066)
Bala: it is not working :: you begging for money is however
politically correct people may be.. :: is not a pretty sight :: and we
are to be objective about it.. (067)
Andrius: yes (068)
Bala: i.e. imagine you are a bird, or an ant, or a tiger.. :: or an
amoeba.. :: it is not a pretty sight to them either :: but folks do not
have courage to say so :: and whatever nice things they may say to you..
:: they prefer the results of a Putin more :: ok..have it insulated.. ::
have it many layers removed away :: they like that too -- without
explicitly wanting to care about it. :: i.e. since a fish is not aware
of water; and a man who loses his legs is more aware of steps than one
with legs --> i.e. they are not aware of their environment and they are
not going to think too much in the direction of finding out stuff that
they don't like.. :: but across all of this.. :: they want to do what
they must do and do what is fun to live.. :: so by default such folks
are deluding themselves when they say "I don't want structure" :: what
they are saying is "I will be a user of structure when it suits me"; ::
"I don't want to commit" but I expect enough people to commit (069)
Andrius: Bala, I notice that online you break a lot of the usual norms,
:: and I found that encouraging, :: and I wonder how you :: think about
that, as you try to catalyze people. :: For example... :: One norm: not
to write to two groups at once. (070)
Bala: Yes..I have thought about all these lots :: before I settle down
on a method. :: so this rule.. :: it goes back to the early Netiquette
days.. :: the key is this:- we must ask ourselves "what is the rationale
for the rule?"; "what were the underlying conditions that this rule was
supposed to better?" :: And then are those conditions here now? :: so..
:: if I were in the Western world.. :: especially technical Western
world :: where there are lots and lots of thinking-articulating folks
for each sub-sector.. :: and cross-posting would be more harm than good
(because it blurs differences between groups) :: (and has too many
people receiving duplicates). :: I would not cross-post. :: However,
when you see the situation in Asia.. :: where nearly everyone is a
newbie :: barely knows how to unsubscribe himself :: has found one list
and does not even know there are other lists..simply put -- very very
low "learning how to learn" inclinations :: then we have to balance
reach vs duplicates :: the benefits of reach versus the detriment of
duplicates :: and little question here -- the benefits are far higher. (071)
Andrius: You spend a lot of energy to foster "acumen", so that people
"get it" (072)
Bala: Yes. :: brb (073)
Andrius: What is that, and how do you foster that? (074)
Bala: It is ongoing conversation..and it would be speeded up with
structure..because we have layers of cognition -- say from 10 to 100 on
a scale of 0 to 100 :: and many are not interested in the mental
gymnastics that is required to grasp the biggest pictures :: most people
who live in a town.. (075)
Andrius: eys (076)
Bala: are not commited to grasping how the town came about idea by
idea and counter idea by counter idea. (077)
Andrius: yes (078)
Bala: they just want to know their role :: the smallest circle :: and
some may want to know one or 2 concentric circles of bigger pictures
above that. :: beyond that -- they are more into fun or whatever else,
which is okay. :: So structure would enable them to quickly find which
jig-saw puzzle piece in the jig-saw puzzle is theirs.. :: and go knock
away and make that a super one (079)
Andrius: I suppose that, if you just want to fit in with a group, you
only need to know your own role :: but if you want to relate to
individuals :: then you have to think about their role. :: So you have
to consider the bigger picture. (080)
Bala: I think of it as a 0 - 100 scale :: in the mix of role and
relating :: so if you want to relate to an individual.. :: and both of
you want to reduce friction to doing it as a primary occupation :: i.e.
not his spare time when he has it and your spare time when you have it
:: then does it not make sense to organise his role? :: and atop the
role.. :: relate to him as an individual :: again take the Linux group..
:: and if you want to expand it.. :: some structure that enables us to
be treat our reciprocal relationships as primary (081)
Andrius: Elevating individuals, encouraging them to think more broadly, (082)
Bala: I think the mental block for you is "what is currency" (083)
Andrius: Yes? (084)
Bala: why are we by hating it treating it as God? :: when you hate
something, you are treating it as God. :: when it doesn't come into the
picture, then you are not treating it as God so much. (085)
Andrius: Do you think I hate money? (086)
Bala: No ifs or buts about it :: you are however coming to terms with it (087)
Andrius: Why do you think that? (088)
Bala: very slowly :: your speech acts indicate it :: And I come from a
very similar background to yours (089)
Andrius: I hope my speech reflects my thinking! (090)
Bala: oh it does too -- they are not mutually exclusive by any means.
:: Like your articles on "groups are fiction" is sound thinking! (091)
Andrius: Maybe I don't hate money - maybe money hates me! (092)
Bala: it has me to think.. :: and I would qualify it by saying default
unstructured groups are fiction :: default pervasively structured groups
can be real (093)
Andrius: I think your points about the transformation between talking
and doing is very key (094)
Bala: as real as a wing formation of birds (095)
Andrius: good example (096)
Bala: (birds flying in a wing formation) :: they choose to do that (097)
Andrius: Elevating individuals, :: encouraging them to think more
broadly, :: or become doers not just talkers, :: is quite invasive,
disturbing. :: What is your ethic? :: What lets you do that to others?
:: To individuals and groups? :: How do you decide what is right? (098)
Bala: Because I want to achieve.. :: and I have several non-negotiable
principles on how much I value my mind-time :: and am looking for others
who see benefit in direction, being part of a doing group. :: If they
don't -- they have tons and tons of other groups to join -- default
groups are non-doing..so go join them :: so I provide variety. :: it is
like a musician.. :: who mostly plays music *he* likes :: and just
happens some others like it too. :: but first and foremost the musician
himself must love his music :: and him loving his music has a big part
in the quality of the music :: and all that has a big bearing on people
loving his boldness (099)
Andrius: How do you check yourself on whether and what you should play
for an audience? (0100)
Bala: You mostly don't. You just do :: when you are totally off beat..
:: and they appear dull :: and that affects you :: you change because it
affects you (0101)
Andrius: That's an interesting question: Is it an audience that brings
out the best in you? (0102)
Bala: not so much because the audience doesn't like it :: An audience
is part of the music :: i.e. if we think of the music as chicken soup ::
and chicken soup has ingredients :: the music is an expression of a
person :: the expression of a person is the synthesis of him and the
influences upon him :: so it is not explicitly affected by the audience
:: but it is organically affected by the audience :: just as a plant is
organically affected by all those bacteria and humus in the ground (0103)
Andrius: Do you feel that you need to ask for permission from a group?
In practice, that seems to be impossible. (0104)
Bala: No, I don't (0105)
Andrius: Why not? (0106)
Bala: ok -- I would if it is a community :: i.e. I sus out what the
group is about -- its customs etc (0107)
Andrius: Do you feel a distinction between being an "insider" and an
"outsider"? (0108)
Bala: Like 99% of what I do is social hacking or setting in motion the
steps towards social hacking :: so I have a select number of groups that
I eye. (0109)
Andrius: About how many? (0110)
Bala: at any time about 5-8 say. :: of which 2-3 would be serious. ::
Yes -- clear distinction between an insider and outsider. :: again there
would be some in-betweens (0111)
Andrius: How do you approach a group as an outsider? (0112)
Bala: an insider has lots more latitude :: courteously (0113)
Andrius: What is courtesy here? (0114)
Bala: if my plan was to become a social hacker in the group :: I would
track down the actives :: I go through the archives :: see the theme and
pattern of their posts :: send private emails to them :: forward
relevant material to them that reflects my worldview :: eg Action
Conversation: Fernando Flores :: and then gradually move up the tempo (0115)
Andrius: In order to be efficient, do you have to cut corners? :: How
do you choose what's most important? (0116)
Bala: I have a criteria (0117)
Andrius: Yes? (0118)
Bala: I am looking for doers :: I am looking for those with
inner-strenght :: I am looking for folks who can bounce back :: so if
they cannot stand one unpleasant from me.. :: I am happy. (0119)
Andrius: So you're obliged not to make it two unpleasants!? (0120)
Bala: cos, I know I have saved my self tons of doing for free for a
potential parasite non-doer :: The default is we have many who simply do
not know what they don't know (0121)
Andrius: Yes. (0122)
Bala: and do not have a notion that there are people whose time is
worth US$1000 an hour.. :: and there are people who are able to lie and
get away getting US$2 an hour :: (i.e. they actually may be worth US$20
an hour if they did the right job -- i.e. if they were not thinkers not
pretending to be thinkers) :: so we have to sort the wheat from the chaffe (0123)
Andrius: How do you convert your activity as a social hacker into
income? :: Where does it come together? (0124)
Bala: This is investment stage for me..R&D :: so just like a company
that makes no revenue but has a great fibre optic invention is able to
sell itself for US$800 million :: and just like a mango tree does not
have any income until it is six years old :: and that does not mean a
mango tree is stupid. :: Hell it is much smarter than most humans (0125)
Andrius: I've been trying to set up the CommonChannels.com as a way (0126)
Bala: it can survive by itself :: :-) (0127)
Andrius: to make small and steady income from social hacking :: and I'm
curious how you see the possibility :: and how it needs to be set up. (0128)
Bala: so it will come when I sell pieces of it or when I group the
people to generate revenue :: if I were doing it all over again, I would
have generated revenue ages ago. :: I have learnt on venture-scaling and
people-assessing. Learnt heaps upon heaps. :: Andrius, the easiest way
is to find a business person that you trust -- and just ask him his 10
non-negotiables and do them. :: i.e. team with the whole (0129)
Andrius: What are non-negotiables, for example, what are yours that you
mentioned? :: I like the concept. :: It would be interesting to help
people make that public. (0130)
Bala: I have to think how best to articulate the specifics to you ::
ok.. :: Commitment is one :: Commitment to reaching self-sustenance
rapidly :: Commitment to intention-rich and commitment-rich conversation
:: i.e. do not have strong opinions in areas where you are not willing
to put your head on the line :: that will force us to choose our battles
more carefully :: and go deeper into those battles we choose. ::
ok..other non-negotiables (0131)
Andrius: yes :: I'll add that non-negotiables fits with my conclusion,
:: that social hacking needs to be about searching for shared values ::
that we can work from. :: For it to be ethical. (0132)
Bala: sense-of-presence-rich communication -- typically once weekly
phones plus 3-4 IM per week :: intention and commitment in managing
expectations :: self-learning commitment :: reciprocity :: integrity (0133)
Andrius: Those are the key ones? (0134)
Bala: that's it :: yes. (0135)
Andrius: Bala, Thank you very much. (0136)
Bala: because most others are derivatives of this (0137)
Andrius: I'll send this out and include parts in my paper. (0138)
Bala: you're welcome :-) :: sure (0139)
Andrius: Anything to add? (0140)
Bala: No :-) (0141)
Andrius: Keep going strong! :: Peace. (0142)
Bala: I will -- take care :-) (0143)
--
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