My opinions (having been playing with code a couple of days):
a) As an editor, short of being able to place comments at a precise
location in text, purple numbers on every paragraph are essential.
And for transclusions, masking on a transcluded paragraph to include
just a chosen sentence is possible in the limited purple-numbered
systems we have because that addressing is possible. (01)
b) Numbers are better than names, because in building a 'Simple Yet
Truly Wonderful Online Commenting System'(TM) you can do neat things
like have a number scheme that goes:
nid01
nid01_01
nid01_01_01
nid01_01_02
...
nid01_02
nid01_02_01
...
...
nid02
...
And it can recurse as deeply as you want. (02)
Just my 2c. (03)
--
Peter (04)
On 4 Feb 2004 at 0:25, John Sechrest wrote: (05)
>
>
> Eric Armstrong <Eric.Armstrong@Sun.COM> writes:
>
> % Ok. I'll buy that, for now. But I sidetracked the
> % original discussion.
>
> % Do self-referencing links really have to be numbered?
>
> Numbered or named.... Yes. So that you can know what they
> are called. The self reference is just a convenence so you can
> cut and paste it.
>
> But from the navigation point of view, you really do
> want to be able to know the name. At least if you want
> viewspecs to have power.
>
>
>
>
>
> % John Sechrest wrote:
> %
> % > In the NLS system, It was possible to address any object.
> % > Purple numbers are a "Poor man's reference" that substitute for
> that. % > % > If you want to point at a concept, you really would
> like to get to % > the specific sentence, or even the specific word
> of the sentence. % > % > So purple numbers are a gross approximation
> of that. % > % > If you move to the next higher level (subsection
> instead of % > paragraph), then you reduce what you can point at even
> more. % > % > Right now, the process of pointing at that % >
> paragraph is too complex/cumbersome for us that only the % >
> dedicated do it. IE, we are not cross referencing as much as % > we
> might like to think we would. % > % > However, the expresibility is
> there when we need it. % > % > I would rather say that we need more
> access, not less. % > % > and my desire would be to have the viewspec
> which would drive % > that. % > % > So I would say yes, we need
> purple numbers at every paragraph. % > % > % > What you really want
> is to have a viewspec that says % > "don't show me the purple
> numbers" Or "show me purple numbers % > on the heading boundries" % >
> % > So really I would wish that we outline what a purplewiki % >
> viewspec would look like and see how that changes the % >
> conversation about purplenumbers. % > % > % > % > % > % > Eric
> Armstrong <Eric.Armstrong@Sun.COM> writes: % > % > % It definitely
> requires a use case analysis. For example, % > % if I'm linking to a
> section heading, I'll create a % > % link like <a
> href="theDoc#32767">The Heading</a> % > % % > % In that use case,
> the ID is of no value to the end % > % user, since it's hidden
> anyway. What they'll be % > % matching is the text in the link to
> the heading they % > % arrive at. % > % % > % The numbers are
> arguably of some value when manually % > % verifying links, because
> you can keep the two % > % documents side by side and compare
> numbers -- if they're % > % in reasonable sequence in the target
> doc, which isn't % > % a given. This is a relatively rare use case,
> though. % > % % > % Then there is the case where I right click and
> drop the % > % link in an email. The link still looks like % > %
> http://someServer/theDoc#32767, no matter whether it % > % appears
> as "link", "327667", or a little circle on the % > % target page. So
> in that case, we can choose anything % > % we want for aesthetic
> reasons. % > % % > % The only other use case I can think of where
> the number % > % would be useful is when you want to copy or type in
> the % > % number, rather than the link. % > % % > % I can see two
> versions of that one: % > % a) I say, see paragraph 32767 in some
> document. % > % --I can't see that happening very much. % > %
> % > % b) I create a list of document links with "#" at the % > %
> end, and then type in numbers at the end because I % > %
> find that easier than copying and pasting each % > % link
> separately. % > % --while valid, it's pretty rare, so I don't
> see it % > % as compelling % > % % > % Those are the cases
> that have come to mind, anyway. % > % None of them to point to a
> displayed number as being % > % a necessary part of the equation. %
> > % % > % While I'm at it, I might as well pick up an ax and
> threaten % > % another sacred cow. To wit: Are purple numbers really
> % > % necessary on every paragraph? % > % % > % There are probably
> better use cases to justify that one. % > % I'm sure they guys who
> have been using purple numbers % > % regularly will have found good
> reasons for it. % > % % > % It will be an interesting if they don't
> though. My % > % experience so far suggests that when I want to link
> % > % to something, it's invariably to a section heading. % > % % >
> % (Lists are interesting, in that regard. As are tables. % > % A
> link to the whole enchilada seems more useful than % > % a link to
> an individual item or cell -- but I won't % > % be surprised if my
> intuition is disconfirmed by others.) % > % % > % And so far, I've
> really found very *few* uses for % > % transclusion at the paragraph
> level. In a content % > % management system, I may want to include
> sections, % > % but I'm really not sure about paragraphs. % > % % >
> % When I quote something, I generally want a sentence, % > % or
> I'll pick bits and pieces of multiple paragraphs % > % to make a
> quote. (Actually, the need to do that so % > % has made me more
> alert to leaving quotable bits in % > % my own writing.) % > % % >
> % And when I build up a document using conditional % > % text, it's
> not at the paragraph level at all -- % > % it's either a phrase
> within a sentence, or entire % > % sections. % > % % > % That's
> generally true in my experience, anyway. % > % Which raises the
> question of whether purple numbers % > % would be more valuable if
> used sparingly, to add % > % the minimal additional clutter. % > %
> % > % Looking forward to thoughts. % > % % > % % > % % > % John
> Sechrest wrote: % > % % > % > Yes, I understand. But I wonder
> about the steps of how it is % > % > actually done by the user.
> having to click on the link in order % > % > to know that it is the
> link you want to start at.... % > % > % > % > But I guess much of
> the value of viewspecs was bound into the % > % > chorded keyboard.
> You could with one key and one click drive % > % > thru a document
> much easier than we can with our current stuff. % > % > % > % > % >
> % > % > % > % > % > Eric Armstrong <Eric.Armstrong@Sun.COM>
> writes: % > % > % > % > % John Sechrest wrote: % > % > % % > %
> > % > What is the mechanism by which you name the things you want
> to % > % > % > see if you have a (purplelinkhere) instead of the
> actual name % > % > % > of the paragraph? % > % > % > % > % >
> % It would be a link like <a href="...#327676">link</a> % > % > % %
> > % > % So the number would be there, and you could read it in % >
> % > % the browser window when you hover over the link or % > % > %
> copy it. It just wouldn't appear as a number in the % > % > % page.
> % > % > % % > % > % That's useful for a large content management
> systems % > % > % based on something like Nodal, where the idea is
> that % > % > % everything exists as an independent unit, so the
> numbers % > % > % get large. % > % > % % > % > % It's an idea
> I've moved away from, but thought I'd % > % > % raise the question
> about numbers anyway. % > % > % % > % > % -- % > % > % This
> message is archived at: % > % > % % > % > %
> http://collab.blueoxen.net/forums/cgi-bin/mesg.cgi?a=tools-yak&i=4020
> 2EAB.8050901@sun.com % > % > % > % > ----- % > % > John Sechrest
> . Helping people use % > % >
> . computers and the Internet % > % >
> . more effectively % > % >
> . % > % > .
> Internet: sechrest@peak.org % > % >
> . % > % > .
> http://www.peak.org/~sechrest % > % > % > % % > % -- % > % This
> message is archived at: % > % % > %
> http://collab.blueoxen.net/forums/cgi-bin/mesg.cgi?a=tools-yak&i=4020
> 8608.5090506@sun.com % > % > ----- % > John Sechrest .
> Helping people use % > .
> computers and the Internet % > .
> more effectively % > .
> % > . Internet:
> sechrest@peak.org % > . % >
> . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest % > % %
> -- % This message is archived at: % %
> http://collab.blueoxen.net/forums/cgi-bin/mesg.cgi?a=tools-yak&i=4020
> 8EB5.7070107@sun.com
>
> -----
> John Sechrest . Helping people use
> . computers and the Internet
> . more effectively
> .
> . Internet: sechrest@peak.org
> .
> . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest
>
> --
> This message is archived at:
>
> http://collab.blueoxen.net/forums/cgi-bin/mesg.cgi?a=tools-yak&i=20040
> 2040825.i148PAO05048@jas.peak.org
> (06)
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